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Post by ZacAttack on Apr 8, 2004 20:21:29 GMT -5
Yall will probably laugh me out of the forum when you read this but here it goes. Back in the garage days all we had was a jam box and some old mics we got off a couple of those old tape recorders. We used to play so damn loud that the only way we could make any audible practice tapes is to wrap the mics in a pair of socks, two socks a peice, put the thing inside a ford bronco parked outside, shut all the doors and windows and THEN close the garage doors and jam! It worked ok except for the drums, but you could practice to it. Well years later I am sorry to say I haven't advanced much further. I have better equipment now but still just mixing everything down the best I can and recording it to casette tape. We just got a BR 8 digital recorder and I love it . But I am still figuring the thing out. Your tips will help so feel free.
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Post by Steelpriest on Apr 9, 2004 4:06:28 GMT -5
Microphones in socks, hehehe! ;D I remember my beginner years when I used to play in a punk rock band and we did our first "recordings"... Our singer used to have an old guitar amp he used for his vocals, a cheap microphone and the singing sounded awful as you can imagine, totally distorted because it was a tube amp... so we had nice overdrive vocals. When recording he used to shout directly into the phones of a portable ghettoblaster (don´t know if you have this word over there, I mean a portable cassette player with radio and built in microphones). We could not hear him while we played, only when listening to the finished recording we could listen to his voice and we had to admit his vocals where not that bad! Completely different to this awful noise that came out of his guitar amp when shouting over it... But back to your question: What are you planning to do? Record the band live while rehearsing or doing a proper demo recording? How many tracks can the BR 8 record at once/at the same time? All eight tracks or only four? Before you do any recordings best thing is you get totally used to some of the facilities of the device. Make sure you know how to activate the record-modus of each track, how to adjust the recording volume, how to adjust the equalisers of each track (I recommend to have the equalisation "flat" while recording, only adjust EQ on the tracks when you play them back), how to use built in effects, etc. My Korg D1600 HD recorder took me quite a time before I could make the first useful recordings. Try to record something at home first, no matter what it is, maybe from a tape source or CD, and check out all the options the device provides. If you try around with the recorder during a band rehearsal you will surely have some problems due to all the irritating knobs, lights and parameters. take the recorder to the rehearsal room when you tried some things and made sure you know how it works and how to operate it. Take the time, those devices are a bit complicated, but you´ll be amazed what a digital 8 track recording will sound like once you can handle the thing...  I mean an 8 track is definitely a nice thing..., welcome in the world of homerecording!  For recording live with the band in the rehearsal room it was really nice if the BR8 can record actually on all it´s eight tracks at once. If it can only record 4 tracks at once, record the drums to two tracks in stereo, one rhythm guitar on the third track and maybe bass or the second guitar live to track 4. You have 4 more tracks to overdub vocals, leads, keyboards... For a real good live recording 4 tracks are a bit too few. Be sure if you have any questions we will help you along... Thank God it´s Friday! Have a nice weekend everybody!  |
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Post by ZacAttack on Apr 9, 2004 15:55:09 GMT -5
(ghettoblaster = jam box same same) Thanks for the tips Steelpriest. To answer some of your questions about the BR8. Its a beginners digital recorder to be sure. Its not set up to record the entire band live, those are out of our price range right now. It can only record 2 tracks at once strait to zip disk. So what we had in mind is mix down the drums into 2 sends, record 2 tracks in stereo, then both rhythm guitars, one at a time, then bass, lead and vocals. Then send it to computer using a program we got called cake walk and mix it down again with the audio tools it provides. Then burn it to CD. No small feat to say the least. But that's what we have and that's how we hope it will work. We had pretty good results with analog recording but nothing professional grade about it. We just mic everything like you would on stage and mix it down the best we can with headphones then send it RCA from the mixer to cassette deck. But none of those techniques seem to transfer over to digital recording with the set up we have. It seems that the best way is to go straight into the BR8 and leave the amps out of the picture and play using headphones track by track. Next we plan to send it to cake walk but we are still trying to get a grip on that as well. Studio time would be preferred but its not in the budget right now. Ok tell me what ya think. All useful advice is welcome.
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Post by Ol Geezer on Apr 9, 2004 18:33:53 GMT -5
(ghettoblaster = jam box same same) Thanks for the tips Steelpriest. To answer some of your questions about the BR8. Its a beginners digital recorder to be sure. Its not set up to record the entire band live, those are out of our price range right now. It can only record 2 tracks at once strait to zip disk. So what we had in mind is mix down the drums into 2 sends, record 2 tracks in stereo, then both rhythm guitars, one at a time, then bass, lead and vocals. Then send it to computer using a program we got called cake walk and mix it down again with the audio tools it provides. Then burn it to CD. Ok tell me what ya think. All useful advice is welcome. Does the BR8 allow you to mix your tracks internally, or send the 8 outputs individually to a standalone mixer so you can do it that way? I don't know how easy it'll be to keep the tracks in sync if you have to transfer them 2 at a time into Cakewalk (assuming you have a typical stereo soundcard). Maybe you've already tried and it's not a problem. If you do end up mixing in Cakewalk, where will you record the final (stereo) master? |
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Post by cage77 on Apr 9, 2004 19:24:19 GMT -5
I've been reading this thread with quite a few laughs. I remember back when we had to put the tape player/recorder in a different room on a different floor to capture a good mix to tape. Ahhh....the simple days....lol.
Lately, I've been doing some decent demo's on a four track. I run a stereo pair out of our mixer to tracks one and two of a four track for drums (kick plus two overheads). Guitars one and two wind up on the other two tracks. Then, I take the tape back to my studio, dump all 4 tracks at once to my computer (I have a second four track at home that has track sends on every channel). USing Cubase, I overdub bass and vocals. I get my mix, do a mixdown, edit the head and tail, and voila, quick band demo that doesn't sound too bad. Not great mind you, but not bad either.
On using a BR8, Zac, you're on the right track. In this circumstance, use your external mixer to get a good mix. I do recommend that you don't bother micing the snare. Just use a pair of 58's on overhead with a good kick mic. Listen through headphones before you track to make sure you're getting the sound you want to tape. The reason behind not micing the snare is this. When you're doing your sub mix on your mixer, you going to want to mix the snare higher in order to get a good solo kit sound. Great. But how will it sound when you add everything else? by limiting yourself to just the overheads, you'll be able to bring the snare out of the mix using a bit of creative eq (boost 5kHz by about 4 or 5 with a narrow Q when you're mixing). With EQ, you can always add some, but taking away is a pain. Oh, when your doing your sub mix, pan your overheads at 9 and 3 with the kick in the middle. This will make a huge difference when it gets to tape.
Guitars can be done with or without an amp (with an amp I recommend a SM57 pointed at the cone about 1 to 3 inches away from the grill...in this instance, you can always take away freq's, but you can't add as well). For your guitars, don't worry about stereo. Go mono and pan at 10 and 2. This leaves room for bass, kick, snare, and vocals up the middle.
As for using Cakewalk, since your using a digital source, recording two tracks at a time won't be a problem. A few tips on this. If you're going to spend time mixing on the BR8, just send a 2 track mix to the computer for editing. However, and this is much more fun and educatiional, try this. Pan each of the 8 tracks left and right. (I.E. Track 1 left, track 2 right, thrack 3 left, etc.) Mute tracks 3-8. Press record in Calkwalk and play tracks one and two on the BR8. After recording, press stop in Calkwalk. Go back to the begining on both deck and start again, but this time, mute tracks 1&2 and 5-8 so that only tracks 3 & 4 are playing. Repeat these steps until all 8 tracks are transfered over. Now you will have all 8 tracks in Cackwalk. Sync the tracks up (TIP - have your drummer start each song with an 8 count sticks or hihat. This makes syncing the tracks up very easy.) Now, you can start mixing, panning, adding EQ and having fun.
So now, the lesson is over for today. But be sure to come back tomorrow when we discuss the fine points of EQ....and custom tailored underwear.... ;D
Hope this helps a bit and be sure to post any questions you might have....
Brandon
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Post by ZacAttack on Apr 9, 2004 20:04:45 GMT -5
Does the BR8 allow you to mix your tracks internally, or send the 8 outputs individually to a standalone mixer so you can do it that way? I don't know how easy it'll be to keep the tracks in sync if you have to transfer them 2 at a time into Cakewalk (assuming you have a typical stereo soundcard). Maybe you've already tried and it's not a problem. If you do end up mixing in Cakewalk, where will you record the final (stereo) master? Ok great questions. 1, its an internal mix down on the BR8. 2 this is still theory mind you we have not yet tried out cakewalk, but the BR8 records onto zip disk and we have a zip drive on our computer so hopefully transferring to computer will be easy. But it also says that there are other ways of doing that. And as far as the stereo master, keep in mind that I am as green as grass to this thing and don't really know, but I was thinking burn it to CD? I'm like a babe in the woods here so if I sound unfamiliar its because I am. But thanks and I will keep you posted. |
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Post by ZacAttack on Apr 9, 2004 20:07:30 GMT -5
I've been reading this thread with quite a few laughs. I remember back when we had to put the tape player/recorder in a different room on a different floor to capture a good mix to tape. Ahhh....the simple days....lol. Lately, I've been doing some decent demo's on a four track. I run a stereo pair out of our mixer to tracks one and two of a four track for drums (kick plus two overheads). Guitars one and two wind up on the other two tracks. Then, I take the tape back to my studio, dump all 4 tracks at once to my computer (I have a second four track at home that has track sends on every channel). USing Cubase, I overdub bass and vocals. I get my mix, do a mixdown, edit the head and tail, and voila, quick band demo that doesn't sound too bad. Not great mind you, but not bad either. On using a BR8, Zac, you're on the right track. In this circumstance, use your external mixer to get a good mix. I do recommend that you don't bother micing the snare. Just use a pair of 58's on overhead with a good kick mic. Listen through headphones before you track to make sure you're getting the sound you want to tape. The reason behind not micing the snare is this. When you're doing your sub mix on your mixer, you going to want to mix the snare higher in order to get a good solo kit sound. Great. But how will it sound when you add everything else? by limiting yourself to just the overheads, you'll be able to bring the snare out of the mix using a bit of creative eq (boost 5kHz by about 4 or 5 with a narrow Q when you're mixing). With EQ, you can always add some, but taking away is a pain. Oh, when your doing your sub mix, pan your overheads at 9 and 3 with the kick in the middle. This will make a huge difference when it gets to tape. Guitars can be done with or without an amp (with an amp I recommend a SM57 pointed at the cone about 1 to 3 inches away from the grill...in this instance, you can always take away freq's, but you can't add as well). For your guitars, don't worry about stereo. Go mono and pan at 10 and 2. This leaves room for bass, kick, snare, and vocals up the middle. As for using Cakewalk, since your using a digital source, recording two tracks at a time won't be a problem. A few tips on this. If you're going to spend time mixing on the BR8, just send a 2 track mix to the computer for editing. However, and this is much more fun and educatiional, try this. Pan each of the 8 tracks left and right. (I.E. Track 1 left, track 2 right, thrack 3 left, etc.) Mute tracks 3-8. Press record in Calkwalk and play tracks one and two on the BR8. After recording, press stop in Calkwalk. Go back to the begining on both deck and start again, but this time, mute tracks 1&2 and 5-8 so that only tracks 3 & 4 are playing. Repeat these steps until all 8 tracks are transfered over. Now you will have all 8 tracks in Cackwalk. Sync the tracks up (TIP - have your drummer start each song with an 8 count sticks or hihat. This makes syncing the tracks up very easy.) Now, you can start mixing, panning, adding EQ and having fun. So now, the lesson is over for today. But be sure to come back tomorrow when we discuss the fine points of EQ....and custom tailored underwear.... ;D Hope this helps a bit and be sure to post any questions you might have.... Brandon Thanks for the free lesson brotha. I just printed it off and will use it as a manual. Hey man thanks again. |
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Post by Ol Geezer on Apr 9, 2004 23:45:47 GMT -5
Ok great questions. 1, its an internal mix down on the BR8. 2 this is still theory mind you we have not yet tried out cakewalk, but the BR8 records onto zip disk and we have a zip drive on our computer so hopefully transferring to computer will be easy. But it also says that there are other ways of doing that. And as far as the stereo master, keep in mind that I am as green as grass to this thing and don't really know, but I was thinking burn it to CD? I'm like a babe in the woods here so if I sound unfamiliar its because I am. But thanks and I will keep you posted. I'm not sure that you can mix to CD in real time all within your computer, but if you end up working with your tracks in Cakewalk you could open up a new stereo track in the same file and mix the others to it and then burn a CD from that -- I showed my cousin how with his laptop and it worked. The only trick is making sure you have a full-duplex sound card so you can turn off that new track from playing back into itself while you record it. This isn't making things any easier, is it? Well, I'm sure you'll figure it out as you go along and it'll make more sense. You've come this far. Have fun. Go for it.... |
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Post by cage77 on Apr 10, 2004 13:05:39 GMT -5
Ok great questions. 1, its an internal mix down on the BR8. 2 this is still theory mind you we have not yet tried out cakewalk, but the BR8 records onto zip disk and we have a zip drive on our computer so hopefully transferring to computer will be easy. But it also says that there are other ways of doing that. And as far as the stereo master, keep in mind that I am as green as grass to this thing and don't really know, but I was thinking burn it to CD? I'm like a babe in the woods here so if I sound unfamiliar its because I am. But thanks and I will keep you posted. As a quick thought, read the manual for the BR8 and see what kind of file type the BR8 actually writes to Zip Disc. Is it .wav or something else. When you find out what type of file it writes, check to make sure Cakewalk can import that file type. Brandon |
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Post by ZacAttack on May 11, 2004 18:34:36 GMT -5
Ok once you format the zip disk to the BR8 it wont talk to anything else.. Bummer! but we are working with the thing and hoping to get it up to speed soon. Thanks again for the info and help. I will keep ya posted.
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Post by mandough on May 14, 2004 11:39:23 GMT -5
Reading all this makes me profoundly glad that our bass player has a degree in audio engineering ! ! I'm not the right person to figure out all this stuff, and he makes it look easy. He uses Cakewalk 9 Pro and has a "Layla" external sound card for his PC. We ran a mic on my amp ( AKG C3000 condenser), bass DI, sm52 kick drum mic, MXL condenser overhead, and a sm57 for both highhat and snare. When Phil had it all set, and levels right, he just hit the record button and away we went. Having overhead snare as well as a close mic let him blend until he got the sound he wanted. Doing it all in one take like that can be frustrating, but I like it better than overdubbing.
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Post by Steelpriest on May 15, 2004 4:06:06 GMT -5
Doing it all in one take like that can be frustrating, but I like it better than overdubbing. Doing it all together in one take can also be fun, we will do it next time somehow and record the complete band in our rehearsal room in order to "fake" a live recording... ;D Maybe some overdubs will be made later, and of course we might overdub an audience... hehe! |
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Post by mandough on May 17, 2004 17:16:48 GMT -5
That reiminds me of one time he recorded the band sitting around talking for about ten minutes(only Phil knew), then did it again three or four more times. Then all the tracks were lumped together, and voila ! ! A crowd listening to the band ! ! ! It sounded real, too.
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Post by ZacAttack on May 18, 2004 13:49:01 GMT -5
That reiminds me of one time he recorded the band sitting around talking for about ten minutes(only Phil knew), then did it again three or four more times. Then all the tracks were lumped together, and voila ! ! A crowd listening to the band ! ! ! It sounded real, too. Noel and I used to take live crowd noise from different tapes and fade them in and out between songs on our early atempts at recording. It was funny when people would listen to them and swear that the music could not be our band because it sounded like a huge crowd was cheering us on. ;D Ahh the good old days. |
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Post by ZacAttack on May 18, 2004 13:57:45 GMT -5
Doing it all together in one take can also be fun, we will do it next time somehow and record the complete band in our rehearsal room in order to "fake" a live recording... ;D Maybe some overdubs will be made later, and of course we might overdub an audience... hehe! I find that when we record stuff track by track its hard to capture the energy of the song as it is ment to be heard. Our stuff is not very technical but is very dynamic. Its pumped full of raw rock n roll drive, and it can be heard when we play live, but is much harder to put on recording when we record track by track. |
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I mean an 8 track is definitely a nice thing..., welcome in the world of homerecording! 
