What speaker for Blues through a Blues Junior???

[ZacAttack]

I have always liked celestion speakers. I only have experience with a few models though. The greenbacks are a great way to go. Also the vintage 30s sound great in my dads Silverface Twin Reverb. My cyber twin has the G12-100s and they work great in it.

But the eminence line is also a great way to go. I have little experience with the new lines like the red coat and the patriot and such but I hear really good things.

About the tubes. Wow I never even dreamed this kind of thing was done or would have so many varried results. It seems new and wierd to me, but I am glad you opened my eyes to it. I want to learn more about this tube swaping thing.

[dgassie]

The best thing is the entire five tube swap was only $40. Just go to the Eurotube site and look for your brand of amp since they have sets for most. Tell Bob what you want your amp to do and he'll sell you a set that will do it.

My tubes got all the way to Mexico in only a week and it took all of 15 to swap 'em. Best $40 I've spent on guitars since I began playing almost a year ago.

[ZacAttack]

I knew that different brand tubes would make the amp sound different. I switched out the groove tube pre amp tubes with the sovtech 12AX7WA, and it gave the amp a much warmer tone. My dad turned me on to sovtech tubes. He uses them in his Silverface Twin Reverb with good results. But I never knew there was a science to the tube swap. Thats pretty cool.

[CAFeathers]

As far replacements for 12ax7's go here is a little chart. The % beside the Tube # is the amount of Gain you will get from that Tube.


12ax7 100%
5751 70%
12at7 60%
12az7 60%
12ay7 44% Also known as 6072
12av7 27% Also known as 5965
12au7 20% Also known as 6139 or 5814


All of these Tubes are safe to use in an Amp that uses 12ax7's.

[ZacAttack]

Thanks Chet, you seem to really know your tubes. Here is a question that I have had since I went looking for replacements for the Groove Tubes. Originaly I was looking for the exact tube the Cyber Twin manual called for. Groove Tube 12ax7wa. When I went looking for them I found several places that carried GT 12ax7 but no one carried the (wa) they had all these other 12ax7 tubes but not the (wa). Finaly I found (of all places) this pawn shop that is half guitar store half pawn shop near Cleburn TX and they had the sovtek 12ax7wa. I knew that my dad's tech recomended sovtek tubes for his Twin so I went with the sovtek 12ax7wa tube the guy had in stock. I had one place tell me that there was no such Groove Tube as a 12ax7wa in the groove tube catalog. Ok long post I know but bare with me here. I got the sovtek tubes and pulled the chasis on the Cyber Twin. The tube ended up not being the problem. The spring loaded tube cover had come loose and due to sound vibration was making a high pitched whistling noise at higher volumes. I thigtened the cover down and problem was solved. Then I started wondering what difference the Sovtek tubes would make so I put them in and got a warmer creamier tone and stuck with those. But guess what the groove tubes said on them. 12ax7wa the same thing the one guy said was not even in the catalog. Ok sorry this is taking so long to get to the question. What does the (wa) stand for and what is the difference between the (wa) and the other 12ax7 tubes?

[dgassie]

Chet;

If I have this correctly, the ECC are direct replacements for 12ax7...right? In my BJ, these three tubes are the preamp section and the amp section is a pair of EL84.

If the ECC are used in the preamp section, would they affect the volume (or power output) of my amp? I can only hear a very small reduction after switching tubes, where I perceive as a tiny bit less volume.

If I wanted less volume from the amp, should I change the EL84? If so, what would you recommend?

Thanks for the great thread everyone.

Dan

[CAFeathers]

ZacAttack said:

Thanks Chet, you seem to really know your tubes. Here is a question that I have had since I went looking for replacements for the Groove Tubes. Originaly I was looking for the exact tube the Cyber Twin manual called for. Groove Tube 12ax7wa. When I went looking for them I found several places that carried GT 12ax7 but no one carried the (wa) they had all these other 12ax7 tubes but not the (wa). Finaly I found (of all places) this pawn shop that is half guitar store half pawn shop near Cleburn TX and they had the sovtek 12ax7wa. I knew that my dad's tech recomended sovtek tubes for his Twin so I went with the sovtek 12ax7wa tube the guy had in stock. I had one place tell me that there was no such Groove Tube as a 12ax7wa in the groove tube catalog. Ok long post I know but bare with me here. I got the sovtek tubes and pulled the chasis on the Cyber Twin. The tube ended up not being the problem. The spring loaded tube cover had come loose and due to sound vibration was making a high pitched whistling noise at higher volumes. I thigtened the cover down and problem was solved. Then I started wondering what difference the Sovtek tubes would make so I put them in and got a warmer creamier tone and stuck with those. But guess what the groove tubes said on them. 12ax7wa the same thing the one guy said was not even in the catalog. Ok sorry this is taking so long to get to the question. What does the (wa) stand for and what is the difference between the (wa) and the other 12ax7 tubes?

I'm not exactly sure what the wa would stand for. I know that Groove Tube makes a 12ax7m and the m stands for Mullard. Mullard is an OLD Tube maker and their tubes are supposed to be some of the best ever made. The Groove Tubes 12ax7m is supposed to be as close to an actual Mullard as you can get.

[CAFeathers]

dgassie said:

Chet;

If I have this correctly, the ECC are direct replacements for 12ax7...right? In my BJ, these three tubes are the preamp section and the amp section is a pair of EL84.

If the ECC are used in the preamp section, would they affect the volume (or power output) of my amp? I can only hear a very small reduction after switching tubes, where I perceive as a tiny bit less volume.

If I wanted less volume from the amp, should I change the EL84? If so, what would you recommend?

Thanks for the great thread everyone.

Dan

ECC83 is 12ax7. I'll post a website that lists 12ax7's and their replacements. Here it is: www.thetubestore.com/12ax70ectyp.html

Leave the EL84's alone.

By changing the Pre-Amp tubes to one(s) with a lower % of gain you will also get less volume ( Example: amp set at 5 with 12ax7 would have to be turned to 6 with 5751 to get same volume). By using a Tube with a lower gain % percentage you have to turn it up to get the same volume or break up to get distortion. Doing this also causes the amp to work harder, working harder makes the amp MORE Efficient.

[dgassie]

Thanks for the explanation.

Still so much for me to learn...

Dan

[CAFeathers]

I am just learning about amps myself.

[ZacAttack]

ZacAttack said:

Thanks Chet, you seem to really know your tubes. Here is a question that I have had since I went looking for replacements for the Groove Tubes. Originaly I was looking for the exact tube the Cyber Twin manual called for. Groove Tube 12ax7wa. When I went looking for them I found several places that carried GT 12ax7 but no one carried the (wa) they had all these other 12ax7 tubes but not the (wa). Finaly I found (of all places) this pawn shop that is half guitar store half pawn shop near Cleburn TX and they had the sovtek 12ax7wa. I knew that my dad's tech recomended sovtek tubes for his Twin so I went with the sovtek 12ax7wa tube the guy had in stock. I had one place tell me that there was no such Groove Tube as a 12ax7wa in the groove tube catalog. Ok long post I know but bare with me here. I got the sovtek tubes and pulled the chasis on the Cyber Twin. The tube ended up not being the problem. The spring loaded tube cover had come loose and due to sound vibration was making a high pitched whistling noise at higher volumes. I thigtened the cover down and problem was solved. Then I started wondering what difference the Sovtek tubes would make so I put them in and got a warmer creamier tone and stuck with those. But guess what the groove tubes said on them. 12ax7wa the same thing the one guy said was not even in the catalog. Ok sorry this is taking so long to get to the question. What does the (wa) stand for and what is the difference between the (wa) and the other 12ax7 tubes?

I asked GT customer service and here is what I got.

These are available directly from Fender or the WA / WC is also at any GT dealer as the 12AX7R

www.groovetubes.com/product.cfm?Product_ID=1166

Tube choice and selection is very much personal
taste and preference. You can find a document that
will go into this in great detail, and give you
information on tube types, characteristics, and also
on the rating system used by GT, conversion from
Mesa to GT and Fender to GT tables, matching information
and more.

www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com is the
website, and the document is the Tube Primer, v1.31
which has a link and button for download or viewing.

V1.31 is 47 pages and not too bad to download.

v3.20 is in two sections and about 200 total pages
total, if you want a LOT of info.

On rating numbers:

Basically, a #1 will distort sooner, and a #10 later. If, for example,
with a mid range tube, say a #5, makes your amp start to break in the
output section at a volume setting on the amp of "4", then with a lower
number tube, like a #2, your amp would have a same sort of break into
output distortion at say a volume setting of "3". With a higher tube,
such as an #8, then you amp would stay clean to about perhaps "6" on
the volume.

High rating numbers are not more or less powerful, they just distort
later. These are preferred by heavy rocker that want maximum clean
output, as they get their distortion and tone from effects or pedals.
These are not as touch dynamic.

Low number tubes are very touch dynamic, and more suited for a
lot of folks, for smaller venues and recording.

Most folks prefer the 4-7 range tubes, as they are the closest in character
and touch to what the amplifier designer had in mind. They are also the most
versatile.

On scale conversions:

On Fender amps, output tubes in newer amps are
color coded. The scale is:

Blue = GT 1-3 rating
White = GT 4-7 rating
Red = GT 8-10 rating

On Mesa Boogie amps there are six color codes.
All of them are in the GT 4-6 range. These amps
have a fixed bias to staying in this range is the
same as Mesa tubes.

Mesa vs Groove Tubes scale

Red 4
Yellow 4
Green 5
Gray 5
Blue 6
White 6

Regards,

Myles S. Rose
GT Special Applications Group / Tech Support

www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com
www.groovetubes.com

[dgassie]

Hmmm... this is starting to be Greek to me. One thing I can tell you is the RED GT Sovtek tubes that originaly came in the BJ sounded cold and on the harsh side. Changing over to the JJs made a HUGE difference. It really is another amp now.

I can overdrive it very easily and it gives me the crunchy, creamy distortion I wanted.

Dan ;D

[Steelpriest]

Amazing thread with tons of information, I´d say... it developed in a different direction from "speaker talk" to "discussing tubes", but what the heck... This is why I love this forum and the participating members...

[noeljob]

no offense guys, but its just a 1- 12 amp how much could you do to it any way? isnt it a brand new amp? ive had my fender twin a year and never even thought about changing a thing. i would not buy any thing i was not sure i was going to like unless it was out of extreme nessecity. so whats the problem? you got a tube amp w/ a 12. leave it be. how bad could it actually be. if you dont like it send it back. i would say shop around.

[dgassie]

"so whats the problem? you got a tube amp w/ a 12. leave it be. how bad could it actually be"

It's not about how BAD it can be. It's about how GOOD you can get it to be. I admit this tube stuff is getting way over my head but man, this whole tube change has taught me a lot about tone!
;D